Tisch Transcript |
On Board Online • Top Stories • April 6, 2009
Senior Writer interviewed Merryl Tisch, chancellor of the Board of Regents, on March 25.
A transcript follows.
Q: You have said your mother was a principal and your father was a professor as well as a rabbi. It sounds as if education was very important in your household.
A: Where I grew up, education was the link to success – personal success and communal success. It was the way you overcame issues of poverty, to move forward. It was the keys to the kingdom. My mother was a Hebrew school principal. I grew up in a house where when you came home and said the teacher said I didn’t do this right, my parents said the teacher’s right. There was respect for teaching and a real link with the importance of education and building a future. I was not surprised when I decided to be a teacher. It didn’t surprise me at all.
Q: You taught for seven years? A first-grade teacher?
A: Yep. Between Philadelphia, Chicago and New York City, I would say it was about seven years. I followed my husband around. He was in graduate school in Philadelphia and I worked really as an intern in a local public school, and then he moved to Chicago. It was during a time in Chicago when there loads of immigrants coming in from Eastern Europe and I taught seven and eight year olds who were basically transitioning into English. Then we moved to New York and I taught in parochial schools, first and second grade. I never would deviate from first or second grade because if you ask anyone who your first-grade teacher was, everyone remembers their first-grade teacher.
Q: So you wanted them to remember you?
A: It’s not just about being remembered. It’s the fondness with which people think of their first-grade teacher. I taught in the school building for four or five years so as the kids get older and they start to misbehave in the fifth grade, and you work in the building, the fifth-grade teacher says, “Merryl, you know I’m having a real problem with Tony. I don’t know what to do. I’m going to send him down to you. You tell him to pull himself together.” There are links that you make when children are in formative years that allow you an entree into their life, to really impact them as youngsters and students going forward that I think is unique.
Q: Did you grow up in New York City?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you meet your husband?
A: It’s an unbelievable story. It’s really funny. My father was a practicing rabbi and he met my husband’s father. And my father-in-law, God rest his soul, a beautiful man, he believed in matchmaking and arranged marriages, and he said to my father, “Do you have a daughter? I have four sons.” My husband was coming home from college that weekend and my father-in-law said, “Listen, Jimmy, I promised this rabbi that I would arrange for his daughter to have a date. I’ll give you 50 bucks if you take her out.” That was it!
Q: You grew up in a middle-class family. You marry into one of the richest families in New York, in America, and you decide to go into first-grade teaching. You don’t have to do this. Obviously money was not an issue.
A: I don’t think people teach for money. First of all, I really love it. I love people. I love kids. I love being a positive influence in people’s lives. I needed to find a way to have a role and teaching was just so intuitive to me because of where I came from and how I feel about education. And, I never regret it. I’m still in touch with a lot of my students all the time. Just about six months ago, a friend of mine called, he runs a hedge fund, and said, “Merryl, I’m trying to hire this guy and he said to me he was your student. He doesn’t want to come work for me. He said, If Mrs. Tisch tells me that I should go work for you, I’ll go work for you. So I had to track him down. He was in London. I said to him, you have to take this job. I have very warm feelings about teaching and I think that’s why I have such respect for teachers. Because I know they’re not doing it for the money.
Q: You said the first order of business facing you and the board was finding a new (state education) commissioner. What are you looking for in that person?
A: I’m looking for someone who frankly would be authentic in the world of education and who will have credibility in that world because I think that is the entree through which you can build conversations with all constituent groups and stakeholders in the field. Without that, you can’t start. We’re looking for someone who understands how to manage complex organizations because the State Education Department is in fact a complex government organization. It has to be someone who has managing credentials, educational authenticity, someone who understands how to communicate with stakeholders, someone who is interested in working with the board to help us reorganize the work of the State Education Department so that we move away from a compliance monitor to an organization that becomes a repository of best practices. We need to find someone who understands the importance of technology. We need to find someone who understands that crucial to our work is work with our stakeholders but also our relationships with our government partners. And, I need to find someone who has passion for the work.
Q: You know many of the major players in New York and in the nation in education – Joel Klein, Randi Weingarten, Diane Ravitch. Any of them interested in the job?
A: No, they aren’t. I think because they are all very satisfied with what they are doing now. I think Joel Klein sees that he is in the middle of a massive experiment and I think he has a commitment to this mayor to finish out their work together. I think that to leave now would be very premature for the efficacy of the work. Randi has just taken on national responsibilities and I think she’s made that public commitment. I think Diane is basically an educational historian and while I would always seek her input in terms of her first-rate thinking on a variety of subjects – and sometimes we’re on the same page, sometimes we’re different, but I always learn something when I talk to her – I think that this is not a comfortable role for her.
Q: Do you have someone in mind for the job?
A: I have an open mind. I have appointed a committee of the board … they are working very closely with a search firm and I expect they will bring to board an array of candidates with whom we can have a dialogue.
Q: Other than finding a new commissioner, what are the biggest tasks facing you as chancellor and the board?
A: I think the board is very committed to restructuring the State Education Department in very elemental ways. I think we understand the unique concept of the University of the State of New York and all of those institutions that fall under our tent – museums, libraries, archives, colleges, universities, middle schools, elementary schools, high schools. That is unique in this country and the solution to educational reform is bringing all of those resources to bear and making them all interconnected and responsible for the outcomes. At the end of the day, we will be graded, as a board and as a State Education Department, if people perceive we have moved the needle in terms of graduation rates. And, it’s not just graduation rates in high schools – those are crucial to us – but also graduation rates in two-year colleges. Additionally, we have been a state that has begun to chip away at the achievement gap. We know the kids in that gap. And we know that they are the same groups that have been identified as in the gap now for decades – English language learners; African-Americans, particularly boys; disabled students. If we can’t really start to get their graduation rates up in significant ways, I think people won’t think we’ve been successful at all. The other issue – and I think this is going to be slightly controversial – is that the standards that have been in place and the testing programs in place have really put New York State at the forefront. The needle is now moving. The president of the United States is putting a large amount of money on the table. New York State is well poised, I believe, to be one of those states that leads the way in terms of the conversation around national standards. That will deeply impact our issues around assessment. I do not want to sit on top of a system as a board, and I think the board agrees with me, where there continues to be inconsistency in terms our performance on national assessments and on statewide testing. We’ve got to figure out as we start this chatter about national standards, what it means for New York State – what out role is, what our responsibility is, what we can use in terms of the remarkable resources we are given by state and local governments. Forty-five billion dollars is what New York State spends on education. I don’t care what the federal government comes in and does, that is an unbelievable partner – to have a state that puts that type of resources into education. I want to lever that to make New York State be a leader in this engine for national reform. When the president talks about college-ready, I think that should define what we mean by a high school graduate. A high school graduate in New York State should be college ready. Now that doesn’t mean everyone wants to go to college. I think our ability to create flexible, innovative educational programs that allow youngsters at the end of their program to chose to go onto higher education or to chose to go into a field of work, these need to be choices. But we can’t kid ourselves with so many of our youngsters coming out of our high schools requiring remediable courses at SUNY or at City University. That is not college ready. I think the president is giving us a very definitive challenge. I think New York State is poised to be a remarkable partner in this enterprise and I expect to carve out a leadership role for this state.
Q: What about the sagging economy and shrinking state resources?
A: Let’s not waste a crisis, as Rahm Emanuel said. Yep, I believe there is definitely an economic crisis, but education is the engine for pulling us out of that crisis. You go upstate and you look at the lack of job opportunities, the lack of growth in those communities. I see enormous potential for educational institutions to be a leader out of that economic wilderness. Education can be the engine, I think, that helps pull New York State, at least upstate, out of this economic crisis. And, I think, how we carve that out, how we help SUNY, how we figure out the roles these colleges should play across the state is going to be really significant.
Q: Do you think that message is heard at the state Capitol?
A: Well, I’ve said it until I am blue in the face. I know other members of the Board of Regents have been very vocal. I think we are pushing that message as hard as it can be pushed.
Q: Are you confident they will come up with the money?
A: I am never confident until I cash the check.
Q: Do you think you are going to get the check?
A: I am hoping so. I believe that New York State really been a pioneer in so many ways, starting with the most recent court decision which has driven school aid, to allowing the state Board of Regents to lead the way on a new funding formula and then funding us in remarkable ways over the last five or six years – this state has pumped so much new additional resources into it, I think it would be shortsighted for them to pull out now. The stimulus money is only going to be there for a very short time, but the Legislature and the Executive branch are institutional partners in this state. They need to drive this. We can’t count on the feds to drive our commitment; our commitment has to be reflected in what our government officials do.
Q: President Obama has suggested expanding merit pay for teachers, rewarding teachers for improved student performance. The teacher unions in New York haven’t exactly embraced this concept. What do you think about it?
A: I believe that issues around merit pay can drive the next iteration of conversations with teachers in the course of professional development. I don’t see merit pay, if applied the right way, as being punitive. I see it as being an incentive. All professions look at the possibilities of incentivizing and the teaching profession should be different. Now, how you get there has to be done in a collaborative way with the teacher unions. You can’t impose incentives, you’ve got to negotiate incentives. I am not big on imposing. I am big on figuring out a way that we can all get to yes.
Q: What about value-added as part of that? Linking student achievement and merit pay?
A: It’s very easy in my mind to reconcile those issues. We’ve got to move to a place where teachers see data and information as allies rather than enemies. When you use information to punish then of course the person controlling the flow of the data becomes the bad guy. When you help professionals in the field – principals, teachers and school boards – use data to inform their growth and to inform their paths, then I think it can be done in a very important way. I do not believe data is there to punish. Sometimes data tells us things that make us really uncomfortable, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t know it. And that doesn’t mean there isn’t an opportunity there to improve. When we talk about graduation rates, I find that what the SED does is we are marking ourselves. We are painfully aware that graduation rates are not moving at the pace we would like and yet we put it out there because we feel that by putting it out there we can help everyone come together and collectively think about how to work this through. If you keep sweeping it under the rug you’re going no place.
Q: Should data be used in determining teacher tenure?
A: That is a big fight, but I want to tell you something, as God’s luck would have it, that’s a fight between the Legislature and the teachers’ union. I can only handle my own fights. I can make Thanksgiving in my house, I can’t make it in my neighbor’s house. So, let them handle their business and we’ll handle ours. There are enough issues where I think our voice is really important and I don’t want to muddy those waters by stepping onto someone else’s turf. But I will tell you, the testing system we have in place now is not able to make those links.
Q: Is the timetable for value-added data-based system slowing down?
A: I don’t think so. I believe part of the innovation fund that the federal government is looking for is going to look to states that are well on their way to developing very sophisticated data systems. New York State and the State Education Department have been the recipients of grants that have helped us really embark on a P-16 data system in very, very aggressive ways. So I think we are well on our way to moving in this direction and I can frankly tell you that we have all the right partners at the table.
Q: President Obama has also said we have to do a better job of getting bad teachers out of the classroom. Are we doing a good enough job on that?
A: That’s really a complicated issue because the board is looking very strongly to moving from this place where we are responsible to schools, to where we are communicating with districts and holding them accountable. I believe that the management of teachers is very much a school-by-school issue and I think that as we look at leadership at our school buildings, one of the things that I would look for as a key indicator of a strong leader is someone who is able to work well with a qualified staff. Unfortunately, not everyone who goes into teaching is cut out to be a teacher. Not everyone who goes into lawyering is cut out to be a lawyer, but I think those are local issues which need to be (locally) managed. I think our role is to certify teachers. And, our role is also to be creative in certifying teachers. We have had the same shortage areas in teaching for four decades – math, science, bilingual, art, music, and dance. I look around this state – let’s just take the cultural opportunities. The cultural institutions that this state has are really a gold mine. I would say if we could find a way to get museums to help us produce science teachers; to get theater companies to help us produce theater teachers. I believe in alternate pathways, but I believe in alternate pathways for those people who have a deep and abiding commitment to teaching. I do not want teaching to become a revolving door profession. My mother and my aunt were great teachers. They were steeped in the profession. I love programs like Teach for America. I love programs like the New York City Teaching Fellows. But I believe that as part of that there has to be a component in it where there is a compulsory five to seven years of work in the field. We are giving these people the opportunity to get certification and get loads of their higher education credentials paid for. Where I come from there is no such thing as a free lunch. This revolving door to me seems silly.
Q: In your comments to the Regents, you have said, “We have to focus on strengthening school districts rather than on struggling schools, working with districts to strengthen their capacity to improve their own schools.” Do you envision a stronger relationship with local school boards?
A: I believe that the State Education Department is not in the position to micromanage school districts. We need to find a way to empower school districts to manage their own business in very specific ways and be accountable to us for the management of those school districts. How they spend their money, how well their schools are doing, what their graduation rates look like, etc, etc. But I think it’s Tom Foolery to think that in this day and age the State Education Department, given the direction that we see of all the initiatives taking place in the field, should even want to micromanage schools.
Our conversation is with the person who runs that district. That district person’s conversation is with his or her schools.
Q: One of the fights going on at the state Capitol is over whether to continue mayoral control of New York City schools. You have been supportive up to a point. What do you think should be done?
A: I think I gave them the greatest idea. Michael Bloomberg to me is a man of his word and what I mean by that is when I said to him, “Mr. Mayor, you and your chancellor are going to have to find ways to increase parental and communal involvement or else we’re going to have a problem here with reauthorization. What do you think about fixing the board?” He said to me, “Merryl, if they move the board around, I won’t want mayoral control. They can have it back.” If you read the law, it says that every district needs to have a district superintendent. Right now in New York City, there are 32 district superintendents who don’t have a role and who have very little responsibility. This is community work. They should take these sitting school superintendents and make them responsible for parental and community engagement. That, to me, would be the way to at least begin the negotiation here. I happen to believe the Legislature is going to reauthorize mayoral control, but I will remind you that the Board of Regents has absolutely no role in that conversation.
Q: You seem to have indicated the school board in New York City should be stronger.
A: You know the issue around accountability and the school board is a very interesting issue. The contractual arrangements that the Department of Education enters into, how they manage their data system – they’ve got to create an outside entity where someone is looking over their shoulder, just to make sure they are not in charge of their own books. That’s the way you get in trouble. I would say, frankly, this group probably has nothing to hide and therefore creating an outside oversight for the purpose of looking over those business arrangements and results in the schools and all the accountability issues, I don’t think should be a very big problem.
Q: You think the board should do that?
A: I’m not sure it’s the role of the board. I think the role of the board as defined now is to hear from the chancellor on the issues of educational policy.
Q: Should the board be required to approve major policy changes, budgets, major contracts?
A: Having grown up in New York City and having experienced the dysfunction of the Board of Education, I am very careful about recommending a reconfiguration of that board that undermines the ability of the chancellor and the mayor to run the school system. I remember that dysfunction and I don’t think anyone wants to go back there.
Q: There is pressure to at least have those members who serve on the board have fixed terms because Mayor Bloomberg fired a couple of them when he didn’t like what they were going to do.
A: Along the way, people made mistakes in this experiment called mayoral control in New York City. I think when the mayor fired those people, I think that was a mistake. The reason being I think there is something about informed consent, and I believe that enough cultivation and conversation did not take place with those board members to lay out exactly why they wanted to move on this social promotion policy. However, they did fire these people, social promotion has been addressed (ended) in New York City and I think that’s to the better of the system. And, so I congratulate the mayor for having the guts to take the heat on something like that. It wouldn’t be my management style. But I’m not a CEO, he is.
Q: Your thoughts on soon-to-retire Commissioner Richard Mills?
A: Richard Mills has been a very substantial leader. He took this state to a place where they became leaders on the issues of standards and accountability and he very much started the debate and negotiation about how to address the youngsters in the gap. He has served with distinction and honor. He will leave us with very large shoes to fill.